Garfield and the Insanity Defense

How common is the insanity defense? And what has it been used for? With a special focus on Charles Guiteau, who was responsible for the assassination of James Garfield, president of the United States.

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Ref:
Brown, D. N. L. (1991, June 7). PMS defense successful in Va.. drunken driving case. The Washington Post. Retrieved May 30, 2022, from https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/politics/1991/06/07/pms-defense-successful-in-va-drunken-driving-case/413e2fe4-5d81-489a-9ae2-16da429c3a48/ 

Public Broadcasting Service. (n.d.). A crime of insanity - insanity on trial | frontline. PBS. Retrieved May 30, 2022, from https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/crime/trial/faqs.html 

Public Broadcasting Service. (n.d.). A crime of insanity - insanity on trial | frontline. PBS. Retrieved May 30, 2022, from https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/crime/trial/other.html 

[Author removed at request of original publisher]. (2015, December 17). 6.1 the insanity defense. Criminal Law. Retrieved May 30, 2022, from https://open.lib.umn.edu/criminallaw/chapter/6-1-the-insanity-defense/ 

Transcript

Marissa: 0:00

Macabrepedia makes light of dark subject matter and may not be suitable for all audiences. Listener discretion is advised.

Matthew: 0:17

March 30 1981, while being escorted to his waiting limousine, then President Ronald Reagan was shot and wounded by John Hinckley Jr. Hinckley would open fire hitting the President with a ricocheted shot off of his limousine. Officer Thomas Dell handy Secret Service agent Tim McCarthy, and press secretary James Brady would also be hit by bullets. All would survive the attack, though Brady would suffer permanent brain damage and later die in 2014. We'll touch on that later, Hinckley would be charged with attempted assassination, he would be found not guilty by reason of insanity. You see, Hinckley was simply trying to impress actress Jodie Foster, with whom he had developed a delusional or rotomatic the obsession. Through the use of the insanity defense, Hinckley would be placed in a psychiatric institution where he would remain until 2016. Because of the public outcry, and a feeling that clearly guilty parties could escape prison time. For heinous crimes by claiming they were insane or even just temporarily insane, would cause the insanity defense to be revisited. Today, we will be following the establishment and evolution of the insanity plea as it pertains to parts of the Western world. Join us as we add another entry into this hour Macabrepedia.

Marissa: 1:49

Hello, and welcome to Macabrepedia a marriage of true crime in the truly bizarre as always, we are Your host, Matthew and Marissa. And this is

Matthew: 1:59

my name first even though you're stating it,

Marissa: 2:02

I didn't think about it. And then I was like, Wait, we're keeping it. Okay, Marissa and Matthew know Matthew as lead host how bullshit okay. So anyway, this is mental health awareness month and it is the tail end of it, this should be coming out on the 30th which is, of course, tomorrow, because we do this at the last minute,

Matthew: 2:25

two hours from the 30th. But because of

Marissa: 2:29

that, we will be discussing some related issues around this

Matthew: 2:33

somewhat. Yep. So today we will be exploring the insanity defense, we will discuss the origins of the fence, what it means what it was and what it is now, as well as some notable cases and cases that may have you may have assumed would have been insanity defenses. Or at least they should have been you would have expected them to use the insanity defense and they weren't. I suppose we should add a further disclaimer that we here at Macabrepedia are not professional lawyers. We cannot provide any level of legal advice and we do not claim to have any level of expertise in legal matters. Except for

Marissa: 3:13

objection hearsay.

Matthew: 3:15

Not an expertise because no

Marissa: 3:17

just because I've been watching the Johnny Depp hamburger trial all week constantly Yeah.

Matthew: 3:21

And then watching other people watch it and do commentary. But anyways, we had we are not providing any, any advice on legal matters or of mental health. We are not mental health professional professionals. We are not lawyers, we have no background and either of those, although I did accidentally once sign up for college classes as a paralegal. I did not mean to, but anyways, I did not follow through with any of those. So anyways. And as you as Merced said, May is Mental Health Awareness Month, and we highly encourage anyone who may need or want help. To reach out to your local professionals get the help you need sidenote, most everyone can benefit from having some type of counseling. I also believe that a majority of people in the Western world suffer from some type of issue that could be found in the DSM. So really, let's begin with some air quotes. Normal is probably the minority. It's not a weakness to talk about your feelings and mental states. Also, Insanity is used here as a term for criminal behavior, not as a descriptor for those with mental health issues. And at this point, I will get off the soapbox. The insanity defense is not a justification of a crime. It is instead an excuse as to why the person committed the crime or if they realized that they were committing a crime at all, effectively, not stating that the defendant didn't commit the crime but instead was compelled to do so and that's and thusly should be excused from criminal charges or conduct during the act. as of the recording of this podcast 2022 The insanity defense is recognized in most US states, the exceptions being Idaho, Kansas, Montana and Utah, there isn't one there. The defense is highly controversial, as at a glance, it seems to be a viable path for acquittal of pretty much any crime. Regardless of how terrible or grotesque or or how severe the actual crime is, it isn't as easy as just claiming that the defendant is insane, or has mental health issues. The insanity is difficult to prove, and is actually very rarely used. When it is a template when it is attempted. It very rarely sticks. Yeah,

Marissa: 5:46

I would say people are very skeptical of that. Yeah. Because it's it's

Matthew: 5:49

very hard to relate to someone who's like, but as we go through some of these for someone to be like, I didn't realize that what I did was wrong. Like I didn't know killing somebody was wrong. Yeah, so it's hard to relate to somebody who, how could that person possibly believe that many criminals suffer from some sort of mental illness as defined by the DSM? I think we're on volume five, five, that's what

Marissa: 6:11

I thought, yeah, it's the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders,

Matthew: 6:15

this is actually a requirement for the defense to be entered at all. Presently, in again, this is also through the lens of pretty much the US law, for the most part, I don't really their US law is based on some European things with the MacNaughton is what a lot of this is based off of, and that that is actually English. But for the most part, we're mostly focused on the US. The mental illness has to be a previously diagnosed or been shown somehow documented in some way as being present for more than just the crime that the person is being accused of. That does kind of fall into kind of a temporary insanity kind of plea. But for the most part, you have to be diagnosed with a mental illness, in order to even bring insanity to the table. There are essentially four types of incentive defenses. That as I just stated, the Minoan defense, which is named for Daniel manaan, who, in 1843, would shoot a member of English Parliament because he thought that he was actually shooting the prime minister, who did not and was convinced was plotting to kill him. This would be one of the first times in western law, that cognitive ability and reasoning would be successfully used to defend a murder or attempted murder, at least at least on this scale. This does set the stage for the development of the guidelines for the insanity defense, as we recognize it now. Obviously, in the past people, that guy did it because he's crazy. Yes, I'm sure that has happened. But this was the first time when it was like, really actually, like presented like, maybe there's, there's maybe this is something we have to kind of separate from just the crime itself is, is the volition and cognitive abilities of the person who's committing the crimes, the manaan test takes into account the defendants awareness and not their ability to control their impulses. So the two basic parts of the tests are, firstly, the defendant must be suffering from some kind of mental defect or disease of the mind. Okay, so this has some kind of mental health issue at the that has to be at the time of the crime. Secondly, they must also be suffering so fully from this defect, that they cannot reason out that the action is air quotes wrong by the established and generally agreed upon moral parameters of the conduct. Depending on the jurisdiction, the claims may be different, it is exceedingly rare that someone uses that offense that they just didn't know what they were doing, that kind of falls into a different category for them or not. And it's they didn't know what they were doing, but didn't realize that what they were doing was, quote unquote, wrong. Some jurisdictions use the term again, air quotes wrong to mean legally wrong by standards of societal law, ie they literally were unaware that murder was illegal. Some jurisdictions put it on a morally wrong, where the person may believe that they were commanded by God. This is called the de effect defense, and thusly, that there is none more strongly positioned to define morality than God themselves. And as such means that the murderer by God's command, you are always going to be morally correct. So, the non defense is that the defendant was unaware of right or wrong, at least during the crime, some who would fail to use this offense. would be a person who had committed a crime and then attempted to cover it up or throw people off their the trail or use false information to clear themselves in some way that shows that you realize that there's something wrong with what you did or else you wouldn't be hiding it right. This shows an awareness that the crime, if discovered, or if it was linked to you in some way would result in punishment thusly morally or legally wrong, right. For example, the manana defense being used unsuccessfully. If you want to hear this story in more detail, you can check out Carolina crimes podcast episode number five. This is from the story from South Carolina. It made huge news when it happened. So most people are probably familiar with it. But it was Susan Lee Smith, the woman who drowned her two young sons by locking them into their car seats and driving her car into a lake. And that was big news. Yeah, she then tried to claim that she had been her car was hijacked by a man with a gun. And this clearly shows that she was trying to shift blame to somebody else. obviously knew she was that killing her toddlers was wrong, but I probably don't want I emphasized air air quotes. Killing toddlers is wrong. Yeah, they are quote that one. She knew it was wrong. It's wrong. But yeah, she was doing this for the affections of some guy who didn't know if he wanted to take on responsibility of having kids so she was like, well if I kill my kids, no problem. No problem solve it. Yeah, but anyways, Carolina crimes podcast episode number five they cover it I think it's in two parts even so they really deep dive that one a similar crime and this one this one is pretty pretty pretty rough. Because of the fact that this is this is this isn't this is backing up slightly. Obviously. Murder is inherently something that seems to be insane, right? If you go on a killing spree here and insane person that doesn't qualify you for the insanity defense because it's the understanding of what you're doing is right or wrong. This is another and I'm telling I'm over prefacing this, and I really only kind of broad stroke this one because it's it's tough. But it this one does deal with a number of children being killed. But it's very similar to the to the Susan Lee Smith. thing. So anyway, a similar crime that was successful in the use of the insanity defense was Andrea gates of Texas, who one by one took her five babies from the breakfast table where they were eating their breakfast, and drown them one at a time in the bathtub, before taking them and posing them all together in the bed as if they were all sleeping and cuddling. She then called 911 and unemotional Lee recounted the past hour and drowning of her children. When questioned about why she did it, she calmly explained that it was because the children weren't developing properly, properly because of the devil's influence. And she wanted them to go to heaven before it was too late for them. Her children were Paul h3, Luke two John five, Noah seven and Mary who was only six months old and I don't have a podcast appoint anyone to for this one. And really the broad strokes are probably all you need to know on this one but I will link the article that I pulled these details from it's it's it's it's intense and I don't really feel like going over many more details because this lady if you they have her exchanges, and she suffered from mental illness for a long time to the point where it was her family had been advised to not leave her alone with children for more than for at all really unsupervised at all. Her husband was trying to gradually allow her to have more time alone with the children. And he was only gone for an hour and in the hour that this that as soon as he left she she committed all the all these crimes. So yeah, so she was insane because she believes that she was doing it because it was the right thing to do. And there was nothing morally wrong with it or legally wrong with it. So the manana defense is mental illness plus not understanding the legal repercussions, or that the act was worth going back to air quotes wrong. This will lead to a verdict of not guilty by reason of insanity, and thusly they will be acquitted. Next, we have the irresistible impulse insanity defense or test. This is almost never used as a defense anymore because it focuses on the defendants ability to stop themselves from doing the act. This is right or wrong is not necessarily important in this one. It's Do you are you acting under your own volition or because of some force that's forcing you to do this, the defendant can know that what they are doing is wrong, and still do it because they are not able to control their actions in the moments. This could be used in conjunction with a claim that the defendant was unaware of their actions being wrong, but it doesn't have to be. So they're just doing something that any any time would, they would say was wrong to do. But they were possessed at the time, like being compelled. Yeah, or Yeah, or sleepwalking or something along those lines, right. So this is a question of volition, not cognition. Were they able to stop themselves from committing the act? I think this is kind of more like the devil made me do it, you know, kind of a defense. Unlike Yeats, she did that under her own volition to save her child from the devil, not the devil had taken control of her to kill her children. Right. So that's, that's the difference between those two, an example provided by the University of Minnesota, where the in irresistible impulse defense did not work is and this is kind of an example of showing where it may have worked. A woman believes that her college sorority sisters are out to get her and that she needs to strike first, she takes a taser and a pair of scissors to the sorority house, where she plans on stunning her sorority sisters and then cutting all their hair off, not murder just shaved him all bald because that's what she feels she needs to do. Upon arrival. At the sorority house. She watches as one of her sorority sisters stumbles down some stairs or trips in the parking lot and she she falls and she has some minor abrasions like a split lip and She rips her clothes. So it's a pretty substantial fall. The defendant decides in that moment not to include this sorority sister in her in her actions. So she leaves her just bypasses her and goes into the house. Later, she encounters another sorority sister and this is the first sorority sister she sees when she comes into the house, they have a little bit of an exchange. Just like a verbal exchange, not even anything particularly violent or anything. She may have insulted her clothing, but that's here nor there. She then stuns her and shaves her head. And then later when making the insanity defense. The prosecution uses her ability to feel sympathy for the one who had fallen to the ground outside and use this as grounds to dismiss the insanity plea because she clearly was able to overcome her paranoia and resist her impulses. Then so thusly undermines her claim of irresistible impulses, right. So yeah, so she, but that's also that was like an assault charge. You know, bringing it back down a little bit, please do the baby drowning. So now not laughing at baby drone. I once I, when I hit that story, I was like, if every one of them is gonna be like that. I'm really neat. I'm changing the topic. Like I'm not striking. Yeah, I'm not going to do this. But then then I read that one and I was like, Oh, see, that's a fun assault and battery charge. That's way better. That's just some, some teasing and light fun here. That's just barely anything. Just a little shaved head. I say it's a bald man. Oh, I would love to get tased to not necessarily with someone who's trying to shave me, but I digress.

Marissa: 18:37

Whatever free haircut

Matthew: 18:40

depends on what they're shaving, I guess. Anyways, next, we move on to the substantial capacity test, which is what allowed Hinckley, the attempted assassin of Reagan to successfully use the insanity defense after attempting to assassinate Ronald Reagan. This takes the two previously touched on tests and kind of loosely ties the two of them together a bit or kind of lessons, each of the each of the ingredients to make this make this insanity soup. The the substantial capacity test like the manaan and the irresistible impulse tests need to have a previously documented or diagnoseable, diagnosable diagnoseable whatever previously diagnosed mental illness. But unlike either of those, the impulse or understanding does not have to be total, it just has to be substantial. Right? So this is important, because it means that defendant can be aware that the act is wrong or feel driven to undertake the act, but but not to the point that it's all encompassing and overriding just substantial. So not I didn't know murder was wrong, but instead Yeah, murder is wrong, but lot not like every murder right now This one was a special murder. So the this change comes from the difference in the words of no and appreciate. These are in the actual letter of the law that changes the word from from No to appreciate kn kn O W. Can Can the defendant appreciate that what they did was wrong? Or do they know it was wrong? This is no longer used as a test as it is very easy to work within the gray areas of no versus appreciate, as well as substantial versus total. After 1982. Most states would replace this kind of a test with with more something closer to them or not in test. We also have another one that's particularly rare. It's so rare, in fact that only one state in the US has this which state is the New Hampshire okay. This is the Durham insanity defense. The Durham insanity defense is the most basic and straightforward defense. The requirement is mental illness and a crime. If you have documented mental illness and commit in an unlawful act of criminal conduct, you can claim insanity. The only it's the only the only say that does it is in New Hampshire. So if you are diagnosed with paranoid schizophrenia, and you believe that your neighbors are secretly plotting to kill you or whatever summon Mephistopheles, resulting in you having to feel the need to take initiative and strike first. Well, you better do it in New Hampshire, because you may get away with it. As long as you have a mental illness that could be to blame for your behavior. So any mental illness, it has to be able to be connected to so it's not like I suffer from whenever I don't even OCD. Oh, is it? Yeah, that's well, yeah, probably not. I mean, if you have a really good lawyer, maybe, but like, yeah, I have OCD. Right. And me personally, I do have minor OCD, right? I don't like having anything on an odd number. Unless it's a multiple of five. I know what's weird, whatever. That's that's who I

Marissa: 22:13

am. But I'm used to keeping the T numbers for years.

Matthew: 22:17

What if I killed you because of it? Even in New Hampshire? I'm pretty sure they're not going to say, Well, that was reason you're insane. No, it's also not really fair to insane people or people with mental illness to just assume that, well, you know, they have a mental illness. So they're crazy person. But yeah, but I mean, like, yeah, there's, I'm sure there are some that lend themselves better to the idea. And you still have to be doing something that's like, paranoid schizophrenia, or psychotic in some fashion, you know, differing from the insanity insanity, that it's like I hadn't said that word 4040 times already. I also have a minor stutter so different from the insanity to the insanity defense, but at least kind of related are the diminished capacity defense, and which is related to a syndrome defense. And also, there's a mental competency to stand trial defense. Okay, so, the diminished capacity defense, essentially claimed that again, these are not like Insanity defenses, but they're somewhat related. So the diminished capacity defense essentially claimed that the person lacked the capacity to commit a more severe crime, and thusly, the charges may be lowered, if not completely withdrawn altogether. This could reduce a charge from like first degree murder to like manslaughter. If the defendant is believed to lack the competency to for premeditated murder. It requirements for which is a requirement for first degree murder the that you had planned to do it. An example given by, again the University of Minnesota, or U M. n.edu. The article is a first degree murder charge being reduced because the defendant, his defense team said that his diet, which consisted primarily of Twinkies, had caused him to have a chemical imbalance that that led him to kill a co worker.

Marissa: 24:20

I mean, there's, there's like no nutritional value in Twinkies.

Matthew: 24:24

Madness. No. I mean, that's a that is a ballsy thing to bring to court. It gets better nice. The diminished capacity defense is a type of syndrome defense. This is this is this gets even better. A syndrome defense is like a crime has. It's like if you had a crime that was caused or connected to something like PTSD, or some kind of like trigger, right. So this is essentially the removal of criminal intent. Something more associated with like a temporary loss of control or a Temper Temper temporary chemical imbalance such as from withdrawal, which there's even been people who have used this withdrawal from caffeine as a defense for for crimes. Or in the case of Geraldine Richter of Fairfax County, Virginia, premenstrual syndrome. Richter had been pulled over for erratic driving while her kids were in the car and refused a field sobriety test claiming she didn't have to do that cuz she's a fucking doctor, which she is actually, but then she physically and verbally assaulted the Virginia State Trooper. She was She he, she tried to like kick him in the groin, and was like flipping out on him when she when he was trying to like take her away for her behavior. Meanwhile, she has like her her three children in the car. She was found not guilty on any of the charges, because of PMS. What defense is,

Marissa: 26:01

I'm just trying to wrap my head around that. Yeah, I mean, like, first of all, she seems like she's got some remarkable hubris to just be like, I'm a doctor, you

Matthew: 26:09

can't touch me. You

Marissa: 26:10

can't touch me. Cop. I'm

Matthew: 26:12

a doctor.

Marissa: 26:13

I'm on my period. Sorry.

Matthew: 26:14

Yeah. And they brought in a specialist that said that two things were involved with that. One is there's like a 5% to 7% of people have like, of women, I guess, would be have like a very rough PMS.

Marissa: 26:30

Some people do. Absolutely. Yeah. But to the point

Matthew: 26:33

where it causes her to be in a highly emotionally charged state. And then the fact that the officer in attempting to get her to cooperate, said that if she didn't cooperate, that he would have to arrest her in that would all call make him have to call the social services to take the kids who are sitting in the car. And their defense was, oh, and then she freaked out because it's like a mama bear protecting her cubs. And not the six glasses of wine that she admitted to him. I mean, like, that's just it's just crazy. So I'll link to Washington Post article for this one as well. It's it's just so dumb and snugly fits into the the bizarre category, I think it's not very McCobb. But it's just how, how bizarre weird of a person and to get away with it, too. It's not anyway, there's also a the issue of mental competency to stand trial. What that means is, is that a defendant has to be able to understand and participate in their own defense and their trial. As the Model Penal Code provides. Quote, no person who as a result of mental disease or defect, lacks capacity to understand the proceedings against him or to assist in his own defense shall be tried, convicted or sentenced for the commission of any offense so long as such incapacity endures. A defendant who is mentally incompetent at the time of the trial is subject to mental health treatment or even involuntary medication until competency has been regained. This means that someone who is absolutely and completely unable to grasp the ideas of laws and or court proceedings at the time cannot be tried. I'm not sure how often this comes into play, I feel that someone who's truly who's doing truly horrendous crimes, but doesn't understand in sufficient capacity that rules exist, are probably going to be dismissed as accidental in nature and not fall into this category of postponing the trial until they realize that reality is real, right. So I don't know for sure, I would have to dig much deeper than I was going to do on the subject, that most often people think that the insanity defense is like for murder, which is likely to be probably one of the more common ones, but there are also lesser crimes as well in I think the mental competency issue is probably most commonly an issue for someone with like some lesser crimes probably or people who are like, completely wasted or on drugs or comatose or something like that at the time, or somebody who's like it had been also injured in it and they're, you know, in a medically induced Well, it's actually the term for medically induced coma. But you know, if they're incapacitated in some way, they have to wait for them to be like back on their feet in order to do so. Not guilty by reason of insanity exonerates the defendant. But these are rare and result in prolonged possibly lifelong stays and mental mental institutions. It isn't just Well, you're crazy as hell, I guess we'll just you don't have to go to prison Have a good day bye. And that's not the way it works. It's still incarceration or imprisonment of some level. But in a mental facility in a in a hospitals kind of facility. So with a claim of insanity, or being placed in a mental hospital, it stands to reason that a person can quote, get better, right. And at that point, they may be just released or put in outpatient or something, right. So you can commit a crime reason of insanity, you get to leave once you're better rather than after a punishment stay. And because of this rule, and because of the rules of double jeopardy, which is being tried for the same crime twice, if, if the person is released, they basically got away with the crime. Right. So I assume that's where the controversy comes in. Most often, as was the case with Hinkley. He attempted to kill Reagan, the sitting president at the time, three other people were injured, one of which died. Like I said, Brady died in 2014. But it was ruled a homicide, even though it was that long later because of the damages that had been done to him during that crime. But Hinckley was still released in 2016. I guess, because he wasn't tried. Because it's technical. I don't think it's, I don't think it's technically the same crime if it's ruled a homicide after the fact, this isn't an episode on hankley. Specifically. More commonly, these days, a person who claims not guilty by insanity does run the chance of being found guilty, but mentally ill, which means this verdict results in the person being incarcerated. But receiving psychiatric treatment while in prison, which is probably the way that a lot of them should probably go. In the American legal system. The accused is supposed to be treated as innocent until proven guilty. This is the same with sanity, the accused is considered sane until proven insane, it becomes the defense burden of proof falls on the defense. A legal team that is attempting to utilize the insanity defense first acquires a psychiatric evaluation as insanity, please need to first have a diagnosed mental illness, whether it's even just after the current life doesn't have to be like, you've been suffering from this for years. But just have it, you do have to have a doctor that actually says this person has borderline but uh, but whatever, it doesn't matter. After that, they can bring the evaluation to the judge and submit the plea. If the evaluation comes back with a with some kind of indicator that the defendant is both sane and capable of standing trial, will strategies have to change, perhaps pulling out the temporary insanity plea? They were only insane at the time of the crime. And now they're fine. If this works, and they're found not guilty due to temporary insanity, after the verdict is read, they just go go free. Well, they don't necessarily have to go to treatment of any kind because they don't actually have a mental illness. They just had a mental illness at the time.

Marissa: 33:11

That's the way to go. Yeah, I'm

Matthew: 33:13

assuming that that one is not easy to get the stasher. Yeah, I mean, it's, I mean, I don't like him. We're not legal professionals or anything like that. But I mean, like, I feel like if I was a lawyer, I'd start every case with temporary insanity. You see, my Your Honor, my client was insane, at the time of 6pm to 615, and they have made a full recovery. So why don't we go ahead and let them go. Anyways, that kind of wraps up this portion. A defendant can plead not guilty due to insanity. They are then evaluated against the tests within whatever the jurisdiction does. After that they're determined if they are mentally incompetent to stand trial, resulting in a delay in the trial until compsci is gained once the trial. Once they once at the trial, they can be found either guilty or not guilty not guilty by insanity, resulting in an acquittal or they can be found guilty but mentally ill resulting in a prison sentence combined with psychiatric therapy. And they may also qualify for diminished capacity or a syndrome defense resulting in the guilty verdict but for a lesser charge. It also seems that a lot of insanity pleas are often on political figures, assassination attempts, so like Richard Lawrence, was acquitted in 1835, after he tried to fire two pistols at President Andrew Jackson, as Jackson was walking through for like a funeral procession and this guy jumps out, takes tries to take two shots at Andrew Jackson. Both pistols misfire, so all of a sudden he's grabbed and whatnot and Mmm. He had a one day trial, Lawrence repeatedly interrupted the proceedings loudly proclaiming that he was the king of England and Rome.

Marissa: 35:10

Really? Yes. Didn't know those two roles went together.

Matthew: 35:13

Yeah. He believed that Andrew Jackson had been secretly working against him being able to claim his rightful inheritance to the British throne and getting his fortune. So he was, he was acquitted by reason of insanity after five minutes of deliberation, and he spent the rest of his 26 years in an asylum. John shrank, shot Teddy Roosevelt at close range. And this is a pretty this is a pretty famous thing because Teddy Roosevelt is a fucking badass, he was giving a speech and this guy, John Trank, steps up, close range fires a bullet into his chest right over his heart. And Roosevelt stumbles around for a little bit, obviously, shrank gets gets captured, Roosevelt realizes that his life was just saved by the copy of his speech and his eyeglass case, which was in there but the bullet had still actually, it says when three inches into his chest, which on a normal sized person is lethal, but this is a big guy chested frickin Ranger was just like bounce shot, get up, insisted on finishing his speech. Meanwhile, John shrank gets institutionalized the rest of his life. But he had believed that that William McKinley had appeared to him in a dream and told him that he had to kill Roosevelt. McKinley was assassinated. So the ghost of a previously assassinated President. When was McKinley? What year?

Marissa: 36:57

Yeah, it was early 20th century like 1901.

Matthew: 37:02

Right. Okay, so Roosevelt was 1912 that that happens. So David Berkowitz, known as the Son, Son of Sam, famous serial killer, he, his defense team tried to get him to make the plea of insanity because he had claimed that he was acting under the orders of his neighbor's black demon dog who had been telling him who to kill. But despite the fact that a psychiatrist had found him paranoid and delusional, the court did find him capable of standing trial. And the Berkowitz wouldn't allow the his lawyers to make an insanity claim. So he just admitted to the murders and got 365 365 years in prison without the possibility of parole. And then John Wayne Gacy, he attempted to do the insanity plea didn't stick. One of the ones that I thought was really weird, because the guy it's Charles Manson. I'm sure everyone's familiar with Charles Manson. He didn't. They didn't attempt to do and insanity, plead with him. And that's where I think is the weird thing about insanity. Right? Or the insanity plea is that if you listen to Manson talk, the dude is on a different planet. Like he just is. He's the dude's Crazy, right? And they didn't, they didn't they didn't even try with that. Actually, the defense didn't even the defense didn't even make a defense. Like they didn't they brought no witnesses or anything to it. Which is crazy, because technically, Charles Manson didn't even really do anything. He had a conspiracy to kill people, apparently, but I don't think he didn't actually kill anyone. story for another episode, though. Anyways, that was one of the ones that I thought I was like, why why would so if you don't submit the insanity plea, they don't it just doesn't even come to the come to come to the courtroom, which is, I think, pretty weird. Because, like you're dealing with Charles Manson, who's clearly insane, you know, but

Marissa: 39:24

whenever the lawyers could have presented it, sure. Yeah,

Matthew: 39:27

but the dudes clearly insane. And they're probably like, nah, this guy's a danger. You know, I mean, he was he wasn't, he was supposed to get the death. That's death sentence. But they changed the law. So capital punishment wasn't on the table anymore. So he spent like 6070 years in prison, trying to do appeals and stuff and come up for parole and whatnot and Nope. But other than that, who is another president of ours? Who MIT. This is your part of,

Marissa: 40:03

I thought you were gonna continue this. Oh,

Matthew: 40:05

this is me trying to give you a time to jump in.

Marissa: 40:08

This is Charles Guiteau. So Charles Guiteau. He, just real briefly, he was born in 1841. So this is a time period. He had like kind of a really shitty childhood, his three out of his five siblings died. His father was very religious and abusive to Charles. And so Charles kind of ended up some being somebody who needed a lot of approval from people. And so he he ended up growing up and he didn't get to enter the University of Michigan when he tried to go. So he ended up going to the Oneida community instead in New York. This was a commune, I guess, of people. They were trying to be very religious, but the way that they saw that, so they were trying to work Yes, they were trying to live a very religious life where they had they commit no sense they were committing no sins is what was the goal? That's the goal. But at the same time, their version of that was lots of free sex lighter for everybody. In fact, it's monotonous Yeah, monotonous relationships monotonous, monogamous. Yeah. Well, the monogamous relationships were frowned upon even so just Just briefly, this community, they, they had this tradition of sort of, like insulting people in a way to try to bring them down, I guess, as far as their hubris. And also, though, the, they there was like, the the like, as I said, they would, they would have sex with each other. But it was free, free, you know, as far as whoever the men were not allowed to climax during the act, women or they could it was like, it was something that they wanted. In fact, if they did not make the woman climax, it was something that they would be it would be frowned upon. They would be made fun of in some ways in the community, but the men could not so actually, when they were younger, and they were training them to not climax, they would actually put them with older women who had gone through menopause so there'd be no risk of pregnancy. Yes, so they could train them to not climax. As you can imagine, masturbation was a big thing. Even though they didn't want them to do it. It was still something that they did. And it was like a seen as a problem in some cases. But anyway, yeah, I feel

Matthew: 42:22

like the climaxing would also just be like, oh, man, I failed again. I guess I have to go. Oh, man,

Marissa: 42:28

but Charles Guiteau. He

Matthew: 42:30

didn't make fun of me. So he did go

Marissa: 42:32

there for a while. He was a young lad. He wasn't that young. He was, you know, he tried to get in community college or into college. So he was he's in his 20s. But he ended up leaving because they really didn't like him at all. Like people kind of hated him. In fact, his name was Charles Guiteau, as I said, and they started calling him Charles cutout. Hmm. So they really didn't like him. But that was part of his his his story. But then he tried to do a newspaper. It was called the daily theocrats so religious, but it failed. Then he tried to sue the United Community for the free labor that he gave him, but got nowhere. Yeah. He then joined a law firms industrious. He is he's got a lot of schemes. He joined a law firm at age 27, and met his wife there. He mostly did Bill collecting though there. So he was a bill collector. But what happened was he would see these people who were debtors. And he saw there, now we're talking. Yeah, he saw how they went about their lives. And he learned a lot. So he ended up charging massive fees to his clients, and he never paid his bills. So he was off. He was very much a debtor until somebody tried to collect on him. And then him and his wife fled in New York. His family tried to New

Matthew: 43:50

York night held in New York City, because all nighters in New York? No,

Marissa: 43:53

yes. He I think he had moved back at some point. His family tried to have him committed since 1875. But he had escaped. Yeah. So this is this is the guy. So later in 1880s,

Matthew: 44:05

this is far more detailed than any of the cases that I present. I've got more

Marissa: 44:09

detail. I mean, it might be a little long. So in 1880, Ulysses, Ulysses S. Grant, was the front runner for President. I mean, let's make sense. This is a couple decades after the Civil War, Ulysses S. Ulysses S. Grant was the major Union General in a civil war. So he was big in the political figure, but he was the front runner, they thought that he was going to take the nomination. And so Guiteau decided that he would support grant and he took it upon himself to write a speech for grants that he titled grant against Hancock, Hancock being the other, you know, but then when grant lost the nomination for president so James A Garfield Guiteau just went in and revise the speech from Grant against Hancock to Garfield against Hancock, he literally went in and just like change the names Hmm, yeah, so he

Matthew: 45:01

was like, this is solid. I'm still gonna

Marissa: 45:03

I'm just gonna change the name. Exactly. That is his attitude for sure. The speech was pretty crappy, even written, it was crappy. It was actually never given never, you know, no speech was ever given from it. Garfield certainly never gave the speech maybe didn't see it. And Guiteau did have copies printed that he distributed. But he never actually paid that bill either. Despite the fact

Matthew: 45:28

he's like, if I just if I just asked for it. Yeah, they give it to me. And then when they asked for money, I just

Unknown: 45:35

tell him no, it's a lot. It's so easy. Exactly.

Matthew: 45:39

That's how debtors work. I know, trust me, I know. But despite the fact this is not because I'm a debtor, it's because I'm a debt collector. Just to let the audience know, it's not because I don't pay my shit.

Marissa: 45:51

So despite the fact that it was complete crowds on Patreon, he wrote. So he basically changed the name, Garfield, one. And Guiteau claimed that his speech was the reason why Garfield won, despite the fact that the speech was never given. It was was that powerful. Yeah. So he figured that he should be rewarded for the diplomatic posts, which he preferred to be either in Vienna or Paris, his first choice being Vienna, but he'll settle for Paris, right? Make sense? So he traveled to DC a day after Garfield was inaugurated, believing that he would be rewarded. At this time, people could request an audience with the President. It was really different than they could go in and they could be given an office, a political office by meeting with the President. So he did this. He went in he tried to get an audience with them.

Matthew: 46:39

He just walked in like we did it.

Marissa: 46:41

Yeah, he did. He really did. Exactly. He did get an audience and with the Secretary of State Blaine, he dropped off a copy of his speech while he was there, expressing that he was glad to be of service and getting Garfield elected. balls in the sky. I mean, he's he's, he's clearly delusional, but Guiteau spent two months living in DC traveling around rooming houses and not paying his bills, basically, staying on brand. When the bill got too high, just kind of left. At first, the White House officials were mostly just annoyed by him. Like who is this guy? Like what is what what is he thinking? But eventually he wore out his welcome. And he was barred from the White House and Secretary Blaine told him quote, never speak to me again on the Paris consulship as long as you live this really upset Charles Guiteau he borrowed some money and went and bought a gun. And when presented with the two options, which were a wooden handled gun or an ivory handled gun, he chose the ivory handled gun because he thought that it would look better in a museum after the assassination. Nice. Yes, actually, it was actually too expensive for him but the store owner dropped the price. I don't know. But he didn't

Matthew: 47:54

pay the bill. Anyways, Brian, you probably put it on my Yeah, I got you. I got some good for it. And I'm gonna I'm gonna be I'm an ambassador baby.

Marissa: 48:03

second toe spent the next few weeks following Garfield around and practicing shooting. He wrote a lot like while

Matthew: 48:08

he's walking around. That was you baby did

Marissa: 48:15

know separately. He I guess wasn't familiar with firearms. So he practiced that. He wrote a letter to General Sherman asking him to for protection from the mob that would no doubt assemble after he shot the president. He also wrote letters that he thought would heal the Senate within the Republican Party after he assassinated the president. Because he figured there would be some issues, you know.

Matthew: 48:36

I mean, the guy's not known. So he even went to the District

Marissa: 48:39

of Columbia jail, and he asked to tour this facility to pick his room. Yes. And the guy at the jail was just like, just come back later, man.

Matthew: 48:48

Come back and cops also.

Marissa: 48:51

He spent most of June following Garfield around at one point in meaning to kill him but seeing him with his wife and First Lady, Lucretia Garfield. He didn't do it because the creature was known to be in poor health. So Guiteau didn't want to upset her and left. Yes, good. On July 2, Garfield went with his two sons to the train station where he was scheduled to leave for summer vacation. He didn't have any guards with him. But this was not common practice for presidents to have at the time. Having guards with him. Yeah. He did have a Secretary of State and Secretary of War with him, but they were just there to see him off. It wasn't like a protection type thing. The first bullet that hit him when Charles came behind him, hit his shoulder and it just grazed him. So he was like, What the hell was that? And then the second bullet hit him in the back because Guiteau was a coward i guess. And he hit him in the back with the bullet. Now it went. It passed by the first lumbar vertebrae and it missed his spinal cord. But then it went past it and stopped behind the pancreas. The pancreas gyuto left because nobody grabbed him and went to the cab he had waiting for him outside. But he was stopped by a police officer who took him into custody after rushing toward it because the he heard the gunshots and Guiteau surrendered to authorities claiming quote, I want to be arrested. Arthur is president now for being the vice president. A crowd was screaming to lynch him but the police officers took him to a building a few blocks away. So President Garfield actually stayed alive for a long time after being shot. He was being treated by doctors whole time. Of course, he's the president, they they're going to try to keep him alive. At first, they really thought he wasn't going to survive the day. But the next day when he woke up, he was in good spirits. He seemed to be pretty good. So you know, their hope for hopeful for his recovery. They attempted to find the bullet by probing the wound with unsterilized fingers and instruments, or yeah, this of course resulted in the wound becoming infected. He had a hard time keeping food down and he actually dropped from 210 pounds to 130 pounds. Yeah, it did not help when he developed sepsis, and he started having hallucinations and developed pus filled abscesses all over his body. He eventually succumb to a ruptured spleen, a splenic artery aneurysm following sepsis and bronchial pneumonia on September 19 1881, this was 11 weeks after the shots, there were 79 days between being shot and dying. So he was there were lots of ups and downs during this time, it must have been miserable. Yeah, it was if summer two, it was really hot. And people, you know, germ theory had been. It was around, it's just that these American American doctors at the time in this area, they didn't really put a lot of faith in it. They believed in the miasma theory and that it would come in from the air rather than germs. So I mean, they were poking and prodding him in the train station with the dirty floor and all that nature. But he couldn't survive within those conditions and he did succumb to his wounds. Most historians now believe that he would have survived the injury with modern medical care with maybe just two to three days in the hospital and then walk downs.

Matthew: 51:58

Teddy. Dang rosemarkie was Teddy Roosevelt would just pull that ball out himself and written his next his personal speech with his own blood.

Marissa: 52:08

But Guiteau went on trial in November of that year, it was quite spectacle. Guiteau was represented by his brother in law, but was constantly insulting his legal team and the judge, and pretty much everybody. He insisted on giving testimony in the form of long epic poems also nice. He would also try to solicit advice from random spectators with past notes. He said that the assassination was the will of God and he was following it. He gave the New York Herald an autobiography and ended up with a personal ad for a nice Christian lady under 30 years old. He sang to the court he was almost killed himself twice, but was seemingly oblivious to how much the public hated

Matthew: 52:51

it sounds like it's that can you with with what's going on currently with like the televised Johnny Depp Amber her? Yeah, like they can't even get a full sentence out with like, objection. hearsay, you know, this guy's singing and writing poetry on the stand like, oh, man, it would have been what? It would have been way more fun to watch those.

Marissa: 53:13

This isn't this guy was this is why people crowded into

Matthew: 53:16

those those those days crowded into the stuff because it was a show. That's

Marissa: 53:22

quite a spectacle for sure. He actually said that he he actually he said that he didn't kill Garfield, I deny the killing. If your honor, please, we admit the shooting. Which to be fair, to be fair, to be fair. That is kind of true because it seems like the the doctors may have actually been Oshana doctors killed him. Exactly. It was one of the most high profile cases in the US based upon a claim of temporary insanity. There you go. Well, well, they considered it Guiteau vehemently insisted that while he had been legally insane at the time of the shooting because God had taken away it's free will he will not medically insane so yeah, I mean him and his lawyers didn't really see eye to eye on this but the judge gave the jury instructions based on the monotony test so there's that she talked about earlier. You know, you had like the this alien s came in? Who said that? Yes. That quote Guiteau is not only now insane, but that he was never anything else.

Matthew: 54:37

Yeah, sounds it sounds like pretty much like right from the RIP just this dude just living in his living in his own kingdom. He's

Marissa: 54:45

got his own world for sure. This guy also said he had no doubt that Guiteau was both insane and a moral monstrosity. Nice. Yeah. He figured that Guiteau had insane manners, which he'd observed in asylums. So he said that this was very similar to what he saw, adding that he was a morbid egotist with a tendency to misinterpret the real affairs of life. But also, I mean, the DEA of the of districts that the District of Columbia said that Guiteau was no more insane than I am. So there was a there's a lot of

Matthew: 55:15

him admitting that he's also insane. Yeah, I think it was part of his strategy to make sure that the he didn't get the insanity plea probably.

Marissa: 55:22

Yes, most likely, I would have guessed. But yeah, Guiteau also sent a letter to now President Arthur, claiming that he should set him free because he had just increased Arthur salary by making him president Hey, yeah, it's it's just nuts. Guiteau argued that he was killed by the bullets, not by the bullets. But by medical malpractice. As we said, he again, he's not wrong. And while he was in prison, and waiting, awaiting execution, he actually wrote a defense of the assassination that he had committed, and an account of his own trial, which he published as the truth and the removal. This guy just he had such I don't even know man, he thought of himself as such a like hope high profile figure that he just wasn't he while he was in prison, he actually objectively died. Actually, he was making plans to start a lecture tour after his perceived imminent release, and to run for president himself.

Matthew: 56:22

I mean, that's how that's I mean, that's a mental illness is being that level of delusional, where you just assume that the whole world is the way you want it to be.

Marissa: 56:33

But he was found guilty of sins to die. And after the guilty verdict was read, he stepped forward and he said, You are all low consummate jackasses to the jury. Yeah, so it's kind of crazy. But he also wrote like a lengthy point, asserting that God had commanded him to kill Garfield to prevent Blaine's Secretary scheming to war with Chile and perfect Peru.

Matthew: 56:57

Well, at least he stopped that from happening. That's why we don't know. Yeah. Thanks to him. We don't have the American Chile and war.

Marissa: 57:07

That's true. That's true. Thank you. Thank you. No, but he did. He was the longest surviving presidential assassin. Because, you know, they typically die

Matthew: 57:21

or kill or something pretty quick. But he

Marissa: 57:23

almost was alive for a full year, almost a full year

Matthew: 57:26

after they hadn't come through with the

Marissa: 57:30

Yeah, just the whole trial and everything.

Matthew: 57:33

But well, good. Good on him, I guess.

Marissa: 57:36

Yeah. While he was being led to his execution, he actually continued to wave and smile at the spectators. He danced his way to the gallows. Nice. Yeah. And he shook hands with his executioner. And, and on the scaffold that was a last request, he recited a poem called I am Going to the Lordy to the Lordy. Nice, which he had written during his incarceration. He wrote it himself.

Matthew: 58:00

Of course, this guy this this, he, I mean, this, this is very reminiscent of last year, maybe we'll have to do him so that we can compare compare the two but yeah, it's, um, I mean, think about it. So that was what 1881 And now it's 2022. And we're still talking about it. Where's that pistol? What museums is the dude new?

Marissa: 58:21

Okay, so the pistol though. It was at the Smithsonian for a long time, and then it went missing at the beginning of the 20th century. Yeah, it's gone. There's a picture of it. Yeah, they, they photographed it, but that's

Matthew: 58:34

what they do. I mean, he stopped the Chilean war. He bought a pistol. He said, This is gonna look good in the Smithsonian. I mean, that maybe he was on to something. No, he wasn't. Oh, man. Oh, no. Tom's gonna tell

Marissa: 58:47

ya he also. I mean, I'm almost done, I promise. But he also requested an orchestra be there as at his hanging wrist resp. Like he, I told you I recited a poem, so that he could sing it with the orchestra in the background. Yeah, actually. I know. I know. We really did. So when he was gonna die. He told the executioner that he would drop a piece of paper, and then he can hang so after he finished reading a poem, a black hood was placed over a smiling face. And moments later, of course, the trapdoor was sprung and he died in snapped his neck.

Matthew: 59:23

That is awesome.

Marissa: 59:25

At the time.

Matthew: 59:26

I mean, I know assassins are bad, but let's if we take the assassin part away, because we can also just chalk it up to malpractice. He just he injured a person doctors killed him he

Marissa: 59:38

did it that guy

Matthew: 59:39

he's the he was the catalyst but still the cattle he that that guy's awesome.

Marissa: 59:46

They actually at the time, this is a little interesting tidbit. That is not I guess relayed to the assassin. But they found out when they autopsy to him that he was suffering from something called phimosis which is basically the inability to retract the foreskin and they He thought that was what caused his his insanity

Unknown: 1:00:03

was because his penis because he couldn't retract his foreskin. Yeah.

Marissa: 1:00:07

Well, I mean, that's so can it can you imagine the the rabbit hole I went down this episode.

Matthew: 1:00:14

This was about insanity. And now we're talking we're ending it on foreskin. So McCobb minute, let's get into the Cue the music. Hopefully there was music there. No. Do you know haven't even edited it yet there might be music, there won't be music, but there might be might have been music? Have you ever wondered like I have? How much force does it take to crush a human skull?

Marissa: 1:00:43

Not really. But

Matthew: 1:00:45

well, not only have I found that out, which is now 2300 Newtons, which is a measurement of force. Which equivalent? It's equivalent of 520 pounds. On a quick Google search.

Marissa: 1:01:04

It doesn't seem like much 520 pounds. I mean, obviously, it's a lot, but

Matthew: 1:01:09

it is a lot. It is it is, it is a lot. And this is most of the studies come from a bike helmet study where they took, I think it was a bike helmets study. They, they had taken like 15 Dried human skulls, and then slowly put static pressure on them, or static force on them until until they till they broke. And that that's what it comes out to this some range is in there. And obviously the size of the skull made a difference and stuff like that. But on average, about 520 pounds would do it now to break like a human femur takes almost double that in order to break a femur, which is also interesting.

Marissa: 1:01:53

This is what happens when you donate your body to science.

Matthew: 1:01:55

But this is this is this is also a static pressure, which means it's not like a strike, right. And in researching how much pressure it takes to crush a human skull, what I came came upon most often was articles who are just pumping out in 2014. Just like boom, boom, boom, every article is 2014 2014. That's because everyone wants to know, could the mountain have actually crowd her skull? Because it pops in Game of Thrones. So now we have our not movie but TV show reference. But yeah, so it a human cannot put enough static force in to to crush a human skull. So the mountain could not actually do that. Because you can't, you can't like squeeze together 520 pounds. Ah, this is also on the temporal lobes. So the size of the heads crushing inwards from like the temple area.

Marissa: 1:02:57

I don't know Gregor Maclean's pretty strong. Yeah, he's

Matthew: 1:03:01

also in a fantasy world where there's dragons, he could do it. But the guy who played the mountain couldn't actually bid on it. unlikely to be able to do what the mountain did in Game of Thrones, which was statically crush a person's head till it pops. But the head does pop once it gives. It just shatters. And normally, it splits around the suture first, which is the the you know, where the plates used where the plates fuse together. That is the first part that that that begins to give. And then it actually ruptures on the inside. And then that's when it all explodes. So I don't know, that 520 pounds. I feel like if he was at his prime of strongman, I mean, I've seen the guy pick up like 1200 pounds. I feel like if he had his body weight on it, you'd probably crush it also, you know, static 520. But you know, you can kind of pulse it a little bit. Get a little at the very end. I think he could probably do it. Anyway. So that's here nor there. That was our McCobb minute 520 pounds breaking human skull, about 900 to snap a femur under static pressure. That will do it for us today. Thank you for joining us. As always, you can reach us on Twitter and Facebook at Macabrepedia

Marissa: 1:04:29

and on Instagram at Macabrepediapod. We are also on Pinterest now. One pin up so far, but you know, whatever. We are on Pinterest. It's Macabrepediapod or Macabrepedia.

Matthew: 1:04:44

Which is it? You gotta tell them Macabrepedia Okay, and we have a Gmail to you.

Marissa: 1:04:49

We do macabrepediapod@gmail.com Hey, there we go.

Matthew: 1:04:53

And thank you for joining us and huge shout out and thank you to all For our patrons over on Patreon slash Macabrepedia $5 gets you a little extra content we just posted. A little kind of behind the scenes kind of 30 minute ish episode of getting getting to know Marissa has hobbies a little bit more. Check out check that out. If you would like to, if you are not in a position where you would like to financially support our efforts here, that is perfectly fine. But if you could like and comment, give us a review over on Spotify and Apple or whatever your pod catcher is that you can do such things that would be hugely appreciated. Also, please share, we will let you go now. Thank you so much. And join us next week as we add another entry into this our Macabrepedia